Man up? What’s in it for us? – A Letter from Rob (UPDATED WITH AUDIO)

LISTEN TO CHARLES READ THE EMAIL:

Adler man up oct 20th

AND LISTEN TO THE 'MAN-TAGE' ON THE SUBJECT:

Adler man-tage oct 20th

From: Rob To: charles@charlesadler.com

 

Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:09 PM

Subject: Re. "Manning Up"

 

I have just one question for those demanding that we 'man up':

"What's in it for us?"

We're hearing a hue and cry about how us Peter Pans are impoverishing (financially, socially, whatever) women, children and society as a whole. But it's always phrased as being a tragedy for others, not the men themselves. How DARE we not fall into line and play the role we have been assigned. How DARE we refuse to roll the boulder up the hill. How DARE we have fun, when we should be toiling to pay for someone else's fun. How DARE we look after our own rational best interests.

Man up and marry a woman? Why? No, seriously, why? Modern marriage holds zero benefits for the groom. We can be divorced on a whim and converted to an indentured servant for years. A man who wants to provide the best environment for his children will favour a stable, two-parent household, but that decision is ultimately not ours to make. Social conservatives and others trying to save the institute of marriage will point to statistics about how married men are healthier and happier, but they get very tetchy when asked how signing a one-sided legal contract accomplishes this, as opposed to a long term girlfriend. We are constantly told that men are afraid of commitment, yet the bulk of divorces are initiated by the woman. Funny how that works. I used to believe in starting a family; I was even lucky enough to grow up in a two-parent household, so I can't even claim I was personally scarred somehow. But I've seen enough carnage amongst my friends and coworkers. I've no intention of being someone's walking ATM and sperm-donor, or a prop in their 'starter marriage.'

Man up and be a father? This line of arguement is a crock. With divorce rampant there's a good chance we will be shut out from much of our children's life, even if we're willing to move heaven and earth to be there for them. The standard line is to start talking about deadbeat dads. But what about mothers who use the kids as hostages in divorce? Even if our ex-wife is a saint, we're still going to be a casual presence at best. And if she's even slightly vindictive, all bets are off in the family court system. Me, I like kids, and think I could do a damn good job as a father. Even thought about adopting once, but considering that the official party line is that males (and fathers) are both superfluous and evil, they'd probably drop me on the sex offender registry just for inquiring.

Man up and be a role model? What's that? Oh, you mean old/dead white men. Why would anyone want us to emulate history's greatest villains? Men (boys and adults alike) are bombarded with constant degradation, told we are inferior, worthless, stupid, evil, incompetent, untrustworthy subhumans. This is echoed 24/7 by our teachers, the media, the courts and our legislatures. It is even echoed by some of our own parents, who been wholly brainwashed by the constant misandrist drumbeat. In many jurisdictions and proceedings, we have been stripped of "innocent until proven guilty" (usually just customarily, but occasionally it's explicitly enshrined in law) . I suppose a 'real man' would spend his days crusading against this, but I despise arguing with tittering fools and don't need the aggravation. Besides, we can accomplish a great deal (and have, and will) simply by withdrawing our participation and our consent.

Man up and work hard? Sure. But for who? Work overtime to provide a comfortable life for your wife and kids? Who then leave because 'you're never there'? Work overtime to be an economic engine for the cash-strapped welfare and social security systems? Why should I feel compelled to contribute to a ponzi scheme that I'll never collect on in my own retirement? My career is proceeding quite well, thank you very much, and I am pursuing it because it enriches (financially and emotionally) ME, not someone else.

Man up and conform to societal expectations? Half the economic woes of these past few years can be traced to the institutionalization of keeping up with the Jones. Buy the huge house, buy the yard toys, buy the RV, take that vacation abroad, be seen at the trendy new spot, buy the latest Apple gadget… Socially and economically, we have no interest in keeping up appearances. I can live very comfortably and fund my interests on as little as $20k a year. I have plenty of leisure time to enjoy my life, friends and hobbies without working myself into an early grave or stressing about where the next loan payment for my status symbol is going to come from.

The constant haranging to 'man up' conjures up the image of a jolly WWI general, shouting "Fix bayonets and over the top lads! The machine guns can't get you all!" Forget it, we're done being sacrificial lambs for someone else. Men aren't manning up, but we ARE waking up. It's a rigged game that we refuse to play, and no amount of shaming language is going to get us off the bench. Want more metaphors? You may have heard the term 'marriage strike,' but it goes beyond that. We're not failing to 'man up,' we're just working to rule. Work slowdowns will continue until management chooses to negotiate fairly and transparently; too bad they've got nothing to bring to the table.

Yes, we're a bunch of losers. THE losers. We lost. Feminists, welfare-statists, the rest… You won. We concede defeat. You got everything you wanted. You've been saying for years that you don't need us, and we'll gladly oblige. We're MGTOWs, Men Going Their Own Way. We don't want to fight you. We don't NEED to fight you. If anything, we should be thanking you. We're free of being beasts of others burdens. We've realized there is no lock on the cell door. We've taken the Red Pill. You can't hurt us, and you have nothing we want.

Now, go away and leave us alone.

- Rob

29 thoughts on “Man up? What’s in it for us? – A Letter from Rob (UPDATED WITH AUDIO)

  1. I would love to shake this man’s hand he has said it all. I wish i knew back in 1988 what i found out in 2001(when i got divorced) my life wouldnt be the life of a dog today.

  2. He is so right.
    I to went through a devorce and the ex Added up all the money she was going to get when the devorce was finalized.
    I wanted to see what she would say to us sharing the time with the kids equally. She said I quote ” fine as long as you keep paying me the same amount of money” this way I can “stay home”.
    After she said that I knew.
    She told me her life was “going to be better now that we are divorced”
    The best thing about this is the kids are getting older now and see what person she realy is. My advice to my son and daughter is there is no need what so ever to get married.

  3. Sad Rob. Sure no woman is perfect and neither is any man. We have to work together, and hope for the good in people to shine stronger then the bad. Of course there are bad times when we have our doubts but we have to work through them together.
    Women only need the freedoms that men have, not more. Now we have some of those freedoms and not all of them, we usually get paid less and we are still expected to do a lot of nurturing and housework. Men are feeling that lack of equality in the family justice system and I sure hope fathers get the same rights one day, because fathers are just as important as mothers.
    I am a mother and wife and now after seven together, we are recently married. I am honored he is willing to be with me forever and only me. I trust him, although sometimes I say I don’t, he really is the only one I can trust. I’m a jerk sometimes and I’m grateful he takes it, I take it from him too.
    You may not have found a woman worthy of your trust, because there’s only one woman you can find like that. Once you open your heart and welcome that kind of love, it will come and it is worth fighting for.
    Children are a whole new world, a learning of selflessness, giving, growing, watching and learning, excitment, fear, so much.
    we thank the almighty for everyhing we have expierenced and my favorite saying coming from Megadeth’s music; So Far, So Good, So What.
    I guess if you ever want to try, find a girl with a heart that is open to change, giving ’til it hurts, bending over backwards, a woman who will say stuff she doesn’t mean and then say sorry, a woman who is your BEST FRIEND and someone you can trust.
    Even then there’s no telling what will happen, but having perpetuation and growing families that are righteous is exactly what the futur needs.

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    Fran Williams on

    My first reaction is Boo Hoo.For the last ten thousand years women have had the short end of the stick, responsibility- wise and in the eyes of the law. As for having fun,everything we have to do shouldn’t be just for our own benefit. It has also been scientifically proven that married men live longer that single ones. I also think if you don’t want to be divorced and lose your kids be careful in choosing a wife. Too many people don’t take the time to discuss things beforehand and take resposibility for their actions afterwards. I don’t want to sound like a Vulcan but logic should be used in choosing a mate (on both sides). Your letter writer Rob sounds like a petulant child who wants to take his ball and go home. If he does, I hope he will keep to himself with his pants zipped and save all his money for his lonely retirement. I prefer to keep hope alive that the pendulum that he thinks has swung so far over to the side of women will gradually swung back to plumb and things will be equal for both sides.Thanks Charles.
    Fran

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    Rob Gribble on

    I can relate to 99% of this letter from Rob. I have been divorced for 7 years. My boys were 12 when it started. Court gave their mother (more educated than i) everything she wanted. $3000 a month in total. My kids are now 19 (children of the marriage at University) and she uses them as pawns to extort all she can from me. The children are keeping the piece in her home, but at the expence of seeing me, their father. Aside from a video of a mother abusing their kid, there is no power in the courts for any father who just want to see his kids. WOMEN ARE NOT CONSIDERED EQUAL IN THE CANADIAN COURTS!!! THEY CONSTANTLY NEED TO BE LOOKED AFTER BY A MAN. SAD.

  4. Dear Rob,
    I’m quite disappointed by your article, especially that you make it sound like you stand for the common interest of men. The picture of a man that you paint, is a picture of a lazy, self serving, un-thoughtful, un-sacrificing male who’s only interest is what he can get out of life. I’m a 16 year old male and I know what it really means to be a man, to put others in front of you, especially women. You fail to mention that the reason most divorces are initiated by the women, is because they catch the man cheating on them, or that he is completely unsuitable to be a husband and carry responsibility. Though that’s the kind of man you seem to be promoting.
    I am not to bother to take the time to write a counter-point to every excuse you make, but it comes down to this. Being a man isn’t about being weak and giving up when people put expectations on you. It’s about giving YOURSELF those expectations so other people don’t have to. It’s about being a person of strength, a protector, a provider. I don’t have the answer as to why it’s a man’s job, but I know that I for one am certainly not going to complain about it and sit here wishing that I could be treated like a child and not have anyone depend on me.
    This is a BOY telling you to man up.

  5. wow. rob said it perfectly. bravo. i won’t be suprised if he get’s hated on by feminists. men don’t have right’s in canada except paying everyone else’s bills. well no more for me. i’m done. i just wished i waking up a lot sooner, like 16 years ago.

  6. I am dealing with a 30? year old law. It was put in place for a reason, i understand, i get it. I am allowed to see my 15 month old son twice a week. I have to fight to raise my child. Something has to change.

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    Beth Mclellan on

    I understand where Rob is coming from. I am a Mother of 17 year old son. I see the daily devaluing of our men. It is happening in schools and its pushed everywhere you look. The media is constantly portraying men as dolts. The feminists movement did not promote equality but a raising of the Feminine and a complete destruction of the male. There needs to be a balance where we respect each other but recognize the difference. I worry about the future of my son. Good luck to you Rob. Be happy.

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    Rick Wieclawek ((that's said ( Vince la vik)) on

    Charles,
    In response to Rob’s letter on Man Up. I now feel so fortunate to have found a woman when I was 23 years of age and married when I was 24. We have been together ever seen (34 years and going) and she is my absolute best friend and proudly I must admit my lover of all these years. We have raised 3 children with either university graduates or becoming so in the next couple of years. We are also the best of friends with all three besides being their parents. My wife Sheila has worked the entire time when raising our family. We brought in a nanny who would look after the children in their own homes and when they went to school the nanny was there to greet them.My wife has never denied my time I spend on fly fishing,fly tying, hunting, running, training dogs or any other activity I chose. Sheila has managed to balance career and family very well as my job also has taken me all over Canada working in the industrial instrumentation field. Even to this day I work on a 2 week in and 2 week out schedule. The thing I am trying to say is that is not impossible to have a life where things work out for you, not exactly like you would want them but just enough to keep you together and also working to achieve more. Funny thing we never talked about divorce as it never occured to either of us. I love her every day and never finish a phone conversation without telling her so, no matter where I am or who is listening. I had one person in the airport a complete stranger comment to me how good it made them feel to hear a 59 year old man tell his wife that he loved her.
    My advice to people who are looking for a mate is not to stop looking and if you meet someone but still have that searching feeling move on and keep searching, because when you meet that special person it’s like a light switches on and never goes out.
    I wish Rob the best in finding a partner and I hope he never stops looking…never get desperate.
    We are not alone I have 3 wonderful friends who have the same type of marriage we have, and others in our area that have shared each other lives for many years. Maybe it’s the water…..

  7. Hi Chuck, I listened to this on your show yesterday and you did not have a female caller. I am 60 and never married female with a 25yrold son. He is a MAN by all definitions. This guy that wrote the original MANN UP letter to you about marriage and fatherhood is considered being a man is wrong! Marriage is a civil contract for the advancement of tribes to create familial allies. The modern systems do not consider the children only the courts. So many of the guys that called in have such heart wrenching stories that i have heard from others. Most of the females/society are hooked on the idea of the perpetuated, nauseating fairy tale. How many get married, have a “legal” baby then divorce to be free, sucker the guy for money then hit the road. To me, marriage is legalized prostitution in exchange for a house,food and a social credibility. If you think it is commitment to have a piece of paper then get some kid to draw a picture of you holding hands to stick on the fridge. DO NOT get married in our society structure or you are screwed if you are stuck will all the responsibilities and no advantages. This goes for both the girls and boys. Nobody can take care of you except yourself! You do not need a crutch, Remember a crutch can support you or beat you to a pulp. If you want a child, do all the legal CRAP before you get pregnant. it is not the kids fault it is born yet they pay the price in the parental wars. Kudos to ROB!

  8. Rob mentioned some very ugly truth about the modern society’s perspective. Men are given all the responsibilities with almost no authority about their children in a divorce situation. Men are potrayed as evil and very unfortunate most of the time by another man (law, court, media etc. Law makers and other involved persons should think why the divorce rate is going up and up. Next generation of those broken families will suffer mentaly. Good reasons why men are unwilling to go for a marriage increasingly and which ultimately destroy the family structure in near future. Do feminist ever think their brother,son might have suffer for such biased, unbalanced,unreasonable family law. Thanks Jerad for your comments.

  9. I can sympathize with Rob, but I think the other side needs to comment. When I was in my 20s I got married and thought that I would be married forever to that one man. In those days I guess I believed in fairy tales. I worked hard and put him through law school and the bar admissions course. As soon as he was admitted to the bar, he told me he wanted a divorce because he had been living with another woman while he was attending the bar admissions course, she was pregnant, and he needed to marry her. He left her a year later.
    So, yes, men can be taken in by bad women, but there is an equal number of bad men out there too.

  10. In response to Fran Williams:
    A study like that says nothing. In fact, if you read it, it mentions that there was no discernible health differences between married and unmarried men until the age of 50 and beyond.
    Translation: Having a women around as a caregiver when you’re older than 50 leads to health benefits. Well well, who woulda thunk that having someone to help me when I’m old and sick would lead to an increase in my health!?!? If that’s all I get, I’ll hire a caregiver with the money I save over 30 years.
    Also, what does the last ten thousand years have to do with now? Should I really pay for what my fathers have done? It’s a fallacious argument. You’re arguing about something that nobody is even talking about here.
    Your “pants zipped” comment just lends an extreme bias to your entire post. Last I heard, men weren’t the only ones who derived pleasure from consensual relations.
    The argument he is making is not against relationships. It’s against the marital institution and societal expectations. We can damn near kill ourselves trying to “man up” yet in the end, we have no rights for it. We derive NO benefits from marriage that we wouldn’t get if we were unmarried but in a long-term and committed relationship. At this point, what is the purpose of marriage? If you can’t trust someone to remain faithful in a committed but non-marital relation, why does suddenly signing a piece of paper change anything?
    The significance of that piece of paper means less and less as time goes on and people stop believing in fairy tales. Given the disadvantages imposed upon us as we sign our lives away, I think he has a fair argument.
    In regards to choosing a mate…well some people change over time. 10-20 years can do a lot to a person. The person you marry at 25 is not the same person 20 years later. If you grow apart over the years, sometimes there is just no fixing the relationship. I think it is awfully presumptuous and even arrogant of you to presume that the 50% or more of people that get divorced nowadays were all irrational and hasty in choosing their partners.

  11. Right on Rob. It’s amazing how many young men fall that trap because they are told that it’s the right thing to do and it will make them happy.
    It’s all a bunch of lies. Live for yourself and take care of number one. Hopefully, we won’t hear from any more collectivist/socialists about men’s responsibilities to society. We’re not a bunch of commies, we are free men and we are individualists.

  12. Marriage is no guarantee of anything for any man. My grandfather who was a very strict roman catholic and did everything that the church told him.
    When he retired, my grandmother got tired of having the grumpy old man around all day, so she left him and he went to live with his preacher.

  13. You would not believe how much I needed to hear these words from Rob. Thank you so much for bringing this to us, Charles. I feel like a Man again.

  14. You said it brother. I am living your nightmare now. But you fight fire with fire, right? I checked out of the wage slave game right after my divorce in 2008. I am here for my kids but nothing says I have to owe them anything but time so you ‘simply’ life…..after all…..nobody expects anything out of you that you don’t expect out of yourself, right?

  15. Listening to your show tonight and what Rob says is so true.
    The problem is the law in our province says that if you get married you owe the other person 50% of your life savings should you get divorced.
    There is something wrong with that law. I don’t believe it has changed to this day.
    The law makes “LOVE” really hard to find in BC because there is a huge financial risk tied to it. One has to turn down what could be great potential girls for marriage because the financial risks are too great should it not work out and ends in a divorce.
    And lets face it the girl always pushes for marriage, its their dream. Sure guys want to get married too but not as much as a girl does. We just stand there in a Tuxedo, but the show on the wedding day is the girl.
    Sure get her to sign a prenup, well nothing says love like a prenup to a girl right?!?
    I have no problem with sharing what I have with a girl while we are married, but if it does not workout there is no way I should have to share 50% of my life savings with her should we get divorced.
    The law should state that after the divorce both parties leave with what assets they had before the marriage and nothing more.
    Sure if one party does not have a job anymore there should be some compensation for that in a divorce, age and ability to work would factor in.
    But if both are young the divorce law should state “its back to the lifestyle they both had before the marriage.”
    Thats fair.
    The law should put an end to marriage being looked at by some as an opportunity to upgrade your lifestyle and financial situation if it ends in divorce.
    Ken

  16. wa wa wa. quite your whining, I am sure there are two sides to the coin here. re: your ex. maybe maybe not. are you trying to say you were absolutely perfecto in the relationship.man screwed up this world.Thanks MAN!

  17. Andrea,
    If it were true that the world is “screwed up”, then yes, it was likely the fault of us men.
    However, we also built this world that you have the freedom to express your narrow-minded, obnoxious opinions in.
    Of course, you females weren’t “absolutely perfecto” in the so-called “screwed-uppedness” of this world, either.
    Maybe you should look at both sides of the coin and realize, hey, you’re just as bad as us, if not worse.
    Either way, you’re bloody welcome for most of everything you put to use in this world. Including your freedom.

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    Robert Douglas on

    If the current system of child support/enforcement (even though there is no access enforcement) is so bleeding wonderful, let’s have it for unbroken homes too! If dad gets sick/loses his job and falls below the income level wifey likes, shame him and garnishee his wages -In the best interest of the child of course. If he doesn’t man up and recover, don’t let him see his kids. 
    I have a friend who’s fighting cancer. He’s too weak for construction work he does for a living. So he’s falling behind on his man up payment, (which is alimony with the image of a child on it to make everyone stupid to the fact that it’s alimony), just as he would if he still lived with the family he’s paying for.  So as he fights off the Grim Reaper our stupid family law system has his name in the Deadbeat Dad column!

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    Connie Schaafsma on

    i am 53 years old and gave 30 years of my life to ONE man, at the tender age of 18.I gave him all I had and tried so hard to be GOOD ENOUGH! I raised 3 lovely daughters and stood strong through all the mental abuse(I thought it was normal to just say yes to everything! Just to keep my man happy.) would never put my kids through a divorce…….we started from nothing and together built a life together worth a substancial amount of money. And then IT happened. The kids where gone on there own and we where STRANGERS! I had nothing to distract me and I broke. His game was suicide,,,,,,always gonna kill himself if things did not go his wsy……Five years after I left and now living below poverty level……still no settlement for fear that he may follow through with the suicide threat,,,,,what about my girls? I can”t let that happen! Five years I have been gone…….five years I have asked for nothing…….now I am asking for my HALF Just my half….not a penny more!Five years and he still controls me even though we have not spoke. 5 years he has ignored the courts….TIME IS UP! I can no longer be afraid……..What do you say? PLEASE!…………….MAN UP! from a GOOD WOMAN who he broke. PS…….NO ONE KNOWS WHAT GOES ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS SO>>>>>>Don’t let the smile fool you,,,,,,,the tears are right behind…….Does the pain ever go away?

  18. It is to bad women (I mean alot not all – some are still married) think divorce solves their problems. So they want a divorce, but want to live off the husband and have there freedom – no responsibility (and use the children for finacially).
    The real question when are the courts going to wake up and realize children and fathers should have rights.
    Maybe courts should encourage staying together, not divorce. But how would lawyers and judges make their money then!

  19. Well. So much I’m thinking and not sure what to say! I am a single, attractive, 38 yr old, financially independent female. And I read this and am in complete agreement. My question is this: Where does this leave women like myself? I know what a man’s place SHOULD be in the home. I DO believe in the sanctification of marriage, and I DO believe that I play a HUGE role in my husband’s ‘manning up’ or not. I’m not afraid to say I NEED a man. Do I do everything myself and my household right now? Why, yes, of course….I’m kinda forced to, no? When my husband and I split I didn’t want anything from him. I’m not ‘one of those’. He has since divorced again and, lucky him, he found ‘one of those’ the second time around. (I must admit, if I only knew what I coulda gone for I may have tried!) Kidding. I have been single for 15 yrs. It would seem to me that men aren’t looking to provide anymore…and I gotta say, it totally sucks that women have tainted men the way they have and I’m left alone. Yup, there aren’t too many ‘good’ women out there anymore that know, understand, and appreciate their place in the home. But, trust me, to no fault of my own, there are just as few men.

  20. As a woman I am saddened by this article. It looks like society as a whole, not just men, act like victims. Everybody seems to be blaming other people for their problems rather than take responsibility.

    Rather than ask ourselves why divorces are so common nowadays, we are just seeking to get rid of the whole institution of a marriage. A marriage is what creates a formal family unit. You are telling society, your friends and family that you are with this person now. You are making a commitment to each other to be there for each other in a world that can be cruel and harsh. You have someone now who’s on your team. That is the beauty of a marriage… Or it should be.

    Instead of blaming marriage, maybe we should look at each individual case and see what went wrong. Originally, women were granted money and alimony because they would be stay at home moms. But in a society, where the woman can make just as much money if not more, then we need to change the laws. Some changes already happening are the prenuptials that we have nowadays. In some modern cases it is the woman who ends up supporting a man.

    What I saw in this article is the legal repercussions of a marriage after it falls apart. I have not seen one person complain about when things were good; about the sex being bad; coming home and having dinner at the kitchen table with their wife and children; going to family events as a family unit; having barbecues and inviting friends over.

    If you are a damaged person, of course you cannot stand the idea of a life long commitment to one person. Maybe marriage is not for you. Thank goodness it’s a free society.

    Women stand to lose just as much as men entering a marriage. Women are expected to have babies since they are married; or else what is the point. Women are expected to be the cook, the cleaner and the house keeper in most cases. Women are expected to give up their whole identity and support, love and cherish the man they married.

    Marriage is not for the weak. It doesn’t matter if you are a man or a woman. It matters how much you love or loved someone.

    So maybe Rob didn’t love enough to want to be married; to want to tell the world that this woman belongs to him. And maybe someone who’s divorced and bitter loved too much…

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